The Overlooked Power of Canine Strength and Fitness with Expert Bobbie Lyons, CSCC, CCFT, KPA CTP

Karin (00:02.585) Bobby, thank you so much for joining me. I I'm so excited. I know your schedule is really busy, so I appreciate you giving me some time. Bobbie (00:02.968) Bobby, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me. I I'm so excited. I know your schedule is really busy. So I appreciate you giving me some time. Yeah, no problem. So could you just give us a little bit of a history of your career with jobs? Sure. I started in my adult life, I started Karin (00:18.647) So could you just give us a little bit of a history of your career with dolls? Bobbie (00:31.718) Teaching foundation agility and some pet dog classes and crate games and things like that. about about 24 years ago or so, 25 years ago maybe. and I had a performance dog that I did agility with, and he had some physical challenges. that kept him from jumping as well as he could. He was a very tense dog as well. So I kind of went down a path trying to figure out how to help him be more comfortable in his body and be able to jump better and do the sport that we loved. he was also an extremely high arousal dog. So he's he was one of those dogs that would, you know, potentially jump through a brick wall if it was in front of him. he was a border collie, Aussie Cross, and he was he was an amazing dog. He was definitely more dog than I needed, but exactly the dog I wanted at the time. but his physical issues had me worried that he would be in pain in his later life. and that the sport that we loved would break down his body over time. So I I really went down a path to look for a way. To keep him moving well and happy doing agility because that was the sport that we both loved. And you know, he would have done anything with me. But I went down this path trying to figure out how to how to do that. And I along the way kind of figured out that he didn't really know where his back end was. He didn't really know how to engage his rear end for forward motion. So he was relying very heavily on his shoulders. which was causing his shoulders to be tight, was causing that tightness kind of to to go back to his pelvis. And then he wasn't fully extending his legs over jumps. So so I started doing some different things with my own dogs to increase their body awareness. And I was kind of paving a path as I went because nobody out there was really doing fitness for dogs. And after I had done Bobbie (02:46.438) Some I have I had three dogs at the time and after I had done exercises and and different things with them for about a year, I decided to offer classes to my students. And at that time I had no idea whether dogs would even do some of these exercises in a room full of other dogs. So it was it was it has been a learning experience the whole time. because again, I didn't have a book to follow or a certification program to follow or anything like that. I was just going on what I was observing in the dogs and using different props to help them use their body better. Karin (03:31.093) That's really fascinating. I I didn't know that you started that early. So so before we move into the educational aspect of it, let's just talk about your personal document. Bobbie (03:31.488) That's really fascinating. I I didn't know that you started that early. So so before we move into the educational aspect of it, let's just talk about your personal dog a little bit. My personal dogs that have now? kind of over your career. okay. Karin (03:54.655) kind of over your career. Bobbie (03:57.858) so let's see. I had a the first dog I had as an adult was my he was probably a flat coat golden cross. his name was Stanley. he was an amazing family dog. he was an amazing jumper and agility, but he had separation anxiety, so competing with him was not really the best thing for him. And and Then I got Force, who was my performance dog. He was my 50-50 border collie Aussie cross. he was, like I said, he was just an amazing dog. that, you know, I swear he knew what I was thinking. And I also had Riley, who was a border collie. And I got him at five months old. He was lunging and snarling at the end of a leash. And and it was just because he hadn't experienced a lot of things in the world at five months and and he did agility, but I never really felt like we were a team. I always kind of felt like I was the caboose on the out of control train, for lack of a better description. but I mean we had moments of greatness, but I wasn't sure what kind of arousal level or thinking ability I would get at a trial. So I didn't end up trialing with Riley, but we did practice agility until he was 11. So Karin (05:03.01) Okay. Karin (05:19.001) Why did you have it? Bobbie (05:25.176) So we did a lot of agility, just didn't compete. And then I have right now, currently, I have a border colleague who grew up with the CCFT program that I know we're gonna talk about. he I got him about six months before we put that program together. And then I have three mini American shepherds and a Hungarian Moody. Karin (05:38.808) Yeah. Karin (05:52.747) Okay. do you complete all of them? Bobbie (05:53.152) Okay. And I guess right now. I don't. So right now I am doing nose work with one of my minis and my moody. And drama, my border collie is eleven and a half and he's retired from doing most things. He does a little bit of obedience with me. I'm starting agility with my moody. my mini girl. is pregnant right now. She's actually due this week to have puppies. she will also be doing agility after we get done with her babies. And then my other two they are my fitness demo dogs and and they do nose work at home and and my boy is you know he just wants to be in my skin on the couch. He's a couch potato Karin (06:50.423) She Bobbie (06:51.502) But but I do basic obedience with all of them. I just don't compete. in fact actually with with nose work I have really struggled to find a NACSW scent test because every time they offer them I'm out of town. because I travel worldwide teaching fitness. So I'm often not available. when they are available and they're hard to get into around here. Whereas on the East Coast, I know they offer a lot of there's a lot more trialing there and people can get through their scent tests and all and get into the level one, two, three a lot quicker than we can here in the West Coast. Karin (07:42.649) So would you say that agility is your sport or Bobbie (07:43.02) Yeah, so would you say that agility is your sport? or I would say agility was my sport. and I see a lot of broken sporting dogs on a regular basis. So I haven't until I got my moody and shine who's my mini Karin (07:57.785) Okay. Bobbie (08:12.172) I would say I didn't have a dog that I was comfortable doing agility with because I didn't know like drama would have been drama would have been a great agility dog, my border collie, but he he's also I would consider him a high arousal dog. So and he also has border collie collapse. So we wouldn't have been able to do it for very long. But but I would say I am more of a mix of of things. I really like the precision of obedience. I love the training of agility. And competing is not really my thing as much, which is good because I'm often out of town when the competitions are offered. But I will probably be trying to compete in agility with my moody and potentially my mini that's pregnant right now. it's just I've been away from actually competing for about 15 years. Cause I've I've really put I've really put most of most of my work into the training part and not the competition part. And again, there's times where I travel 18 times a year. So it just makes it really hard to to compete when I'm not at home to practice. Karin (09:19.257) Okay. Karin (09:31.075) Mm-hmm. Karin (09:38.051) So let's use that as a segue into strength and fitness. Bobbie (09:38.412) So let's use that as a segue into strength and fitness. All of my dogs do strength and fitness, of course. but I also spend a lot of time training things that my clients train so that I can support their dogs better with fitness. So for instance, I have clients that do every sport that you could possibly imagine. All the ring sports, the protection sports, You know, rally, obedience, agility, dock diving, nosework, lure coursing, you name it. I have clients in all of those realms. And so some of the things that I train my dogs to do is so that I can see the how the body goes through those processes and what the physical demands are of those jobs so that I can support my client dogs better. So I didn't used to be very for instance, I didn't used to be very interested in obedience. I thought it was kind of boring. until I kind of got more into the precision part of it. And healing is actually very physically demanding on a dog and can cause back issues if it's not supported in the right way. So so my specialty is taking a dog who has had, say, a physical issue or is coming up as a puppy trying to prepare them for activity. Karin (10:42.211) Mm-hmm. Bobbie (11:07.49) Or having a dog that is getting ready to do agility or dock diving or flyball any of those sports and preparing their body for the movements that they're going to be doing in those sports prior to actually training. So just kind of preparing their body ahead of time. And then also say I have a dog in flyball that their their flyball turn has broken down. so some of that is physical and some of that is kind of retraining the body. So so I will work with the handler to to strengthen the dog better and to give the dog better information so that they can do a better turn on the box, for instance. and also cross-training that so that they're not leaving the other side of their body at risk. and same thing for obedience. so when I'm working with obedience dogs. They over muscle on the left side of their body because they naturally lean away from the handler for healing, even if it's not a focused heel. and so strengthening the right side of the body is really, really important because most of the time on my obedience dogs, it's the right side of the body that gets injured because it's weaker. So tell tell us a little bit about your business. Karin (12:25.443) Hmm. So tell tell us a little bit about your business. How does it operate? Are you are you remote? Bobbie (12:32.172) Okay. How does it operate or I have I always tell people I have lots of different baskets. so I I teach here in the Beaverton area, Beaverton, Oregon, outside of a rehab clinic. It's healing arts animal care. And I rent space here and I I teach a couple of days a week here. Karin (12:40.877) Yeah. Bobbie (12:57.326) And then I also offer online Zoom lessons for people all over the world. And I also travel to teach workshops. So this year I will have gone to Korea t I go to Korea twice every year. I'm gonna go to New Zealand in December. I go to Calgary and all over the US. I'm I travel almost once a month, except for I stopped traveling so that I can raise a litter of puppies. I kind of try to lock things down as much as I can for the puppies because I I do a lot with them. in July with my my personal program is the certified canine strength and conditioning coach program through. Karin (13:37.603) Mm-hmm. Bobbie (13:52.78) North Carolina State. We are hosting the Canine Fitness Summit. and we will have speakers, veterinarians, other fitness instructors, massage therapists, all kinds of different things going on there, as well as a modality room where you can get your s a massage for your dog. You can put your dog in the underwater treadmill. we're gonna have the gate mat, Sherman Canap's bringing. The gate mat so we can evaluate gate. and we're also going to be offering, Sherman's gonna be offering orthopedic evaluations, and I will offer fitness private lessons as well during that event July 25th and 6th. So that's something that I hope to offer every year. This is just the first time we've offered it. And you know, like I said, I travel all over the place. Giving workshops. Karin (14:55.053) When you travel, do you see more similarities or differences to US dog culture? Bobbie (14:55.414) When you travel, do you see more similarities or differences to US dog culture? I would well I would say there's some differences and but a lot of similarities. I would say in Europe they do a lot more they're a lot more active than we are here in the US. The like agility happens like fifty weeks out of, you know. 50 weeks out of the year, like it's constant there. whereas we don't have as much here. they also do one day trials there instead of two day trials. So they might actually have a trial on Saturday at one location and then a trial on Sunday at another location. they don't trim nails as much as we do. They're not as neurotic about nail trims for sure. they do break they break down behavior, Karin (15:50.135) Interesting. Bobbie (15:54.058) oftentimes better than we do. But like in Korea, when I first started working with Korea, the people that I work with there did not have other than training their own dogs, they didn't have any dog training experience. So over the last, you know, eight to ten years, I have, you know, really helped them learn how to train dogs. And so it's been really fun for me to watch them grow over time. and I would say one of the The big things that I see is just kind of a lack of knowledge, just not knowing what to do, when to do it, even though we have so many online options out there for fitness, you know, oftentimes people don't really know what their dog needs. And they don't know how to evaluate that. Karin (16:41.079) I think people still misunderstand fitness. Bobbie (16:41.248) I I think people still misunderstand fitness. Sure. Karin (16:47.898) And think that their dogs should be able to perform without any preparation. Bobbie (16:50.858) And think that their dogs should be able to perform without any preparation. Yes. And I also think that a lot of people think that fitness things are tricks and don't don't don't understand the physical demand that they're asking. And so it's tricky just to try to get people to understand, you know, why are they doing those exercises? why is it important? How often they should do it, what they should be watching for, you know, all of those things. And that that those are things that can be covered really well in private lessons. And if you're a really good online learner, and you're getting feedback from the instructor, you can you can learn it. but you need, you know, but it is something that you have to pay attention to. It's not You know, I always tell my clients, you know, don't do that bright and shiny thing that you see on YouTube or Facebook or whatever without knowing what it what is the reason that they're doing the exercise. what is the focus of the exercise? I get people all the time that's that will send me something, they'll be like, my gosh, look at this exercise. It's terrible, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'll be like, okay, it's terrible from a standpoint of it's not like this other exercise you did, but maybe their goal is something different. You know, so find out what the goal is of the exercise because, you know, it might be the complete opposite goal than you think it is. And so there it might not be as bad as you think. So I always tell people, just ask the question, you know, what is the goal of this exercise? And anybody that's putting anything on the internet should be able to tell you that you know, without being upset about it. Karin (18:14.809) Mm-hmm. Karin (18:42.873) So it Bobbie (18:42.902) Especially if they're posting it on Facebook. Karin (18:46.445) Very true. Bobbie (18:46.83) Very true. So in your opinion, what dogs should be doing strengthening exercises? I mean, honestly, I believe that all dogs can benefit from fitness training. if I were to go back and re rebrand it, I would call it a little bit more like functional movement for dogs, because we're not trying to build bodybuilders. Karin (18:49.657) So in your opinion, what dogs should be doing strengthening exercises? Bobbie (19:14.476) We're trying to get the dog to functionally use their body better. So if anybody out there has done functional movement for humans, they basically take you down to you know, back to when you're a baby and like how did you learn to get up off the floor? How did you use muscles to do that? How did you you know, how do you get off the floor using one arm instead of both arms? How do you get up using your rear? Karin (19:40.408) Okay. Bobbie (19:42.39) and your your legs versus, you know, most of us will get up off the floor and put our hands on our thighs and kind of try to, you know, push up with our upper body as well. And so what they do is they put you through different movements to to take you out of using those big muscles that that we're all used to depending on. So our compensatory patterns, right? And so that's kind of what we do with the dogs as well, is we want to keep changing their exercises over time because once the body adapts to them, then we have to keep challenging the body. But we're not necessarily going to like say it's downstands. I'm not necessarily going to say, okay, next your next lesson is going to be downstands on an incline because that's harder. Because again, I'm not trying to build bulky muscles. I'm trying to make the muscles that are there strong. Karin (20:07.277) Mm-hmm. Bobbie (20:35.928) flexible and able to work better. And I'm trying to recruit more muscles in their movement and get those dormant muscles that they're not using engaging so that every so that the body doesn't have to work as hard and it has more power. And I think that is really the underestimated thing about fitness is that that it's not, you know, I get lots of people who have bully breeds, for instance, and they're like, my dog doesn't need strength training. it has muscle. Sure. But I can put that dog on two pieces of equipment and they will fall off because they cannot stand still and engage their stabilizers because they're so used to using their large muscles that they don't know how to stabilize. So what happens when they get off balance on a dog walk? Or what happens if they're trying to take off for a drump and they don't know how to to gather their body underneath them to propel over that jump? they're more likely to get injured. because they're overusing their front or they're overusing something else. So I think that's really the most misunderstood thing. like I tell all of my puppy people, for instance, I start puppies at twelve weeks old. I want to teach them how to use their body independent of the handler. So I teach a lot of pattern games. I also want them on five different surfaces every week. so that they learn how to manage those surfaces. And I definitely want them to encounter as as young as possible, I want them to encounter all of the surfaces that they may encounter in in their performance sport so that they know how to manage their body. and developing that that neurological pathway as young as possible, the body always remembers. it's just kind of like when we go to the gym, say Say we were somebody who went to the gym a lot and then we took some time off and we went back to it. Our body remembers how to do all of those things and the muscles build stronger faster because the body remembers how to do it. It might take us a little bit of time to get there. We we won't be able to start at the same, you know, lifting the same amount of weights or doing the same amount of reps you know, that we were doing when we left, but but we will build up to that. Karin (22:58.74) Okay. Bobbie (23:01.326) Quicker because our body will remember how to do it. So do you think that there's a shift? Go ahead. Do you think that there's kind of a shift going on where people start to understand that strength training, proprioception, all of those things are more important? I think that there is a shift and part of that is more awareness. so like I said, when I started, nobody was really doing fitness. Karin (23:05.593) Do you think that there's a shift? Do you think that there's kind of a shift going on where people start to understand that strength training, proprioception, all of those things are more important? Bobbie (23:31.454) I was one of the the group that put together the CCFT program. And then I left that program and made my own program through accredited through North Carolina State. So and then there's also, you know, there's there's a completely online program that used to be on Fenzi. I think the more awareness that we have out there and the more The more options for learning that there is, there's more awareness. But I still don't think a lot of people really get the benefits. So, like even people who who have a competition dog that repeatedly gets injured, they won't always find the time for the strength and body awareness training that they need to do to keep their dog performing. And and it's tricky because I think some people really do. Like I have clients that Karin (24:17.838) Mm-hmm. Bobbie (24:29.014) I give them homework and they do exactly what I tell them to do, you know, to the T or close. And then I have clients that, you know, I have some clients that'll be like, I only do fitness in the winter. And I'm like, okay, I love that you're coming, but it doesn't really work that way. You really do have to keep doing it all the time. because if you, you know, if you don't use it, you lose it. and so but I think that one of the things with fitness that people don't really understand too is You kind of have to marry it to what the dog is already doing. So, like if the dog is already going for say off-leash hikes, for instance, along with say they go to agility training twice a week and they do dog diving. There's a good example of of the kind of dogs that I see. if that's the case, I'm going to I'm gonna support all three of those activities with fitness, but I'm gonna I'm gonna try to talk to them about how to fit it into their life because in some cases they can do fitness in the morning and go to agility class at night, and the dog is conditioned enough that it doesn't per that doesn't affect their performance. But some dogs that maybe are newer to fitness, if you do fitness on the same day, they might see knocked bars at agility or something else. and so I always tell my clients. You know, make sure that when you start to see something like that, you don't drill it automatically. You, you know, kind of back off and go, What did I do earlier today? Or what did I do yesterday that might have caused some soreness or tightness? because dogs do get sore just like we do. but with fitness, as long as it resolves within 24 hours, we're gonna say that's pretty normal. And then, you know, you just give your dog a day off or twenty-four hours and then you go right back to your normal activities. But I think not everybody kind of tracks back. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. To see absolutely. Yeah. To see, you know, where where they may have overdone it or, you know, 'cause like for instance, I just lost sixty pounds. And my body is a lot more capable of doing things now than than I could a few months ago, right? and I am I am one of those people. There's a thirteen mile hike that Karin (26:28.259) Mm-hmm. Yep, absolutely. Karin (26:45.977) Mm-hmm. Bobbie (26:50.014) I used to do all the time and I want to go do it. But I know even though it's a rolling hill kind of hike, 13 miles on me, I'm gonna be sore. And I'm not gonna be sore for 24 hours. I'm gonna be sore for days afterwards. and it's just because I haven't done it in a long time. so I think that you know, I get lots of people that will say, you know, we go for a five mile hike every weekend. Well, okay, great. Karin (27:01.699) Okay. Bobbie (27:18.392) But what are you doing the other six days that prepares the dog for that five mile hike? Karin (27:27.039) I also think that strengthening is so fascinating because as as I get older, I'm aware of the fact that I'm losing muscle and fitness. And senior dogs are going to be in the same boat. Bobbie (27:27.178) I also think that strengthening is so fascinating because as as I get older, I'm aware of the fact that I'm losing muscle and fitness. Yep. And senior dogs are going to be in the same boat. Yep. And keeping those senior dogs moving is one of the single best things that you can do because oftentimes we have our senior dogs have had previous injury or they've you know, done a sport, maybe they have some arthritis in some joints. And like I see arthritis a lot in feet and toes because of a lot of agility dogs with arthritis in their toes and feet just because landing on their front feet as much as they do for jumping really affects those joints. So working with them to keep those joints moving and that's the best way you can keep them to not be as painful is to keep moving them and keep that fluid moving into the joints and and working. I think we we often will feel sorry for our older dogs and be like, you can stay home, it's fine. but at the end of the day, you know, they they also need activity so that they don't become more sore. So like my 11 and a half. Sorry. Sorry. it's just like the new research that's showing that we should get up every hour rather than doing a half hour of exercise. Yep. Yep. Yep. And you know, some of that is just to, it's a guideline, right? Like back in the day, I said to people that puppies should be walked five to ten minutes for every month. Karin (28:52.779) It's just like Sorry. it's just like the new research that's showing that we should get up every hour rather than doing a half hour of exercise. Bobbie (29:21.74) They are old. And the goal with that was to give a guideline to my puppy owners and to be at an hour by the time they were a year old, right? There was no science behind that. I just I needed to come up with some kind of guide to that they could figure out. So if they had a three-month-old puppy, they shouldn't be out there walking the puppy for an hour. they probably should be out there walking for maybe 15, 20 minutes. Right. so so it was just sort of a common sense guideline. But it is it is funny to me that now that guideline is still out there and I see people all the time saying there's no science behind that and there isn't. It was just it was just a guide that I threw out into the universe and it stuck. I've heard it before. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it is hard to find something that's Karin (29:52.759) Yeah, absolutely. Karin (30:04.99) Ha ha ha. Karin (30:11.833) I've heard it before. It is hard to find something that's semi-useful. Like I have a show dog and I I just kind of guess about how long she should be on the treadmill. Bobbie (30:21.702) semi-useful. Like I have a show dog and I I just kind of guess about how long she should be on the treadmill. Yep. so treadmill work is is tricky. So I personally only walk dogs, walk or trot on a treadmill. I never leave them at a pace because it's not an efficient gait. and so most people either walk their dog I see two problems with treadmills. They're either on too short of a treadmill and it's going to shorten their stride, or they're not moving the dog fast enough. And then as far as time, it really depends on what your dog has been built up to. you know, I used to do a five minute warm-up and a five minute cool down, but I would trot on a trotting interval for 30 to 40 minutes with my younger border colleague. Huh? I never work her that hard. Maybe I'm underworking her. Well, I mean the thing the thing about striding is is that you want a mix of things, right? So treadmill is never going to fix a gate. oftentimes the a land treadmill will shorten a dog's stride over time. Karin (31:21.751) I never work her that hard. I never work her that hard. Maybe I'm underworking her. Bobbie (31:44.388) unless they are striding at a incline and unless they are striding on a long treadmill because dogs move forward, back, and side to side. So I actually my favorite treadmill exercise is actually to set up cavaletis for a long stride next to the treadmill. So I do 10 to 20 reps through the cavaletis and then 10 minutes on the treadmill and I bounce back and forth. And the reason to do that is because the cavaletis encourage a longer stride and the dog is more likely to stride with long strides on the treadmill coming right off of the cavaletis. So cavaletis also, since we're talking about it, most people set them too high because they've seen them set at hock height for rehab, for like rehabbing a TPLO surgery or something like that. And really for striding, you want the poles to be. Karin (32:08.001) Mm. Bobbie (32:35.574) very very close to the ground, like just over the dog's foot height or even on the ground. and you want the space between the poles to be the dog's height at the withers and then beyond. So once the dog understands how to trot through the poles, then you want to increase that space until the dog double strides the poles and then you want to back off to where they are just hitting, you know, a front foot and a rear foot in between the poles each time as they're trotting through. So What I see most often is the poles are too high. And if your poles are too high and your dog is not naturally stepping over the poles, then you're shortening your dog's gait because they are lifting the foot too high to to get over the pole. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. Okay. So And I will lower mine. She's like, and I will lower mine right now. Karin (33:25.357) Yes, it does. And I will lower mine. Karin (33:34.137) Exactly. Although I do use higher ones when I'm walking. Bobbie (33:34.734) Exactly. Although I use higher ones when I'm walking. You what? I use higher ones when I'm walking. But why? Well, I was thinking about that. Maybe I don't really have a reason. Yep. So th that's those are the questions I always ask is you know, what kind of fitness exercise like if you were my client, I would be like, What kind of things have you been doing? Karin (33:41.485) I use higher ones when I'm walking. Karin (33:47.137) Well, I was thinking about that. Maybe I don't really have a reason. Bobbie (34:01.746) and what is your setup? And then let's adjust those things to to make them better if needed, right? So, so in this case, when they're walking over poles or trotting over poles, I still want a natural footfall unless you're trying to like I might use higher higher cavaletis to help with strengths training as far as getting the dog to li to flex through their joints more. That's that's really what they're used for in rehab is so say you have a a dog that needs to flex their knee because they went through TPLO surgery, you want you want them to bring that leg up higher and flex that knee and reach over, right? But eventually you want them to stride normally and have a normal footfall. However, if I had a client that wanted that prancy heel, where they're really lifting their front legs higher, I might actually have them heel through higher cavaletis to help the dog shift back and lift their feet higher. Karin (35:08.728) Okay. Bobbie (35:09.07) So so it just depends on what what your reason for doing it is, right? Karin (35:15.415) So in my mind I was doing it to improve Tom Wine. Bobbie (35:15.8) So in my mind, I was doing it to improve top line. So improving top line is stretching the dog out, not scrunching them up. Okay. So improving top line is going to be trotting through poles with the poles extended out so that the dog is really reaching. Okay. Great to know. Yep. so walking through high stepping cavalities is is generally it's not going to extend. Karin (35:34.561) Okay, great to know. Bobbie (35:45.103) the joints as well. and it's not going to extend the spine as well. So that won't do top line. Karin (35:54.337) Have you worked with a lot of poodles? Bobbie (35:54.616) Have you worked with a lot of poodles? I have. And I work with a lot of confirmation dogs as well. So poodles are often the ones that I have worked with, actually I have one coming in today. they are often taller than they are long. not always, but sometimes, which can cause some gating issues because Karin (35:59.043) Tell us. Bobbie (36:24.108) They will they can crab. do you know what that is? not really. Okay, so crabbing is when the dog is trotting and their rear foot hits the front foot. in order to avoid that, they shift their pelvis to one side or the other so that their legs are crossing versus hitting. And so so sometimes with Karin (36:30.263) not really. Karin (36:49.209) Got it. Bobbie (36:52.65) with dogs that are built that way, it's about finding the right speed that is not overreaching to gate the dogs for confirmation. I also find that they can be very very flexible and sometimes they can be actually very very tight if they don't get the movement that they need. So I've had both. the one that's coming in today has had some SOAS issues from overextending when they jump. So for instance, it's an agility dog. If their rear legs come up higher than their shoulders, it overstretches the psoas and the low back and makes it angry. So or you know you might see that flyover on the dog walk or not on the dog walk on the A-frame where they, you know, kind of jump the A the apex and then their rear legs come up too high. Karin (37:38.232) Mm-hmm. Bobbie (37:50.732) that often causes that psoas injury. so, and there's lots of different things, but but this dog just has a lack of control and and is not getting its rear legs underneath them properly. So I'm actually working with them to teach that movement cycle of bring your rear legs under you and propel over that jump versus pushing at the ground. Karin (38:03.149) Right. Bobbie (38:21.018) and and letting the rear legs go like a kite, for lack of a better description. And so I do a lot of really looking at how the dog is doing the job that they're doing. And some of my poodles don't do a job, you know, like they're just they're a pet dog that goes hiking. and so I'm gonna support the hiking, the off leash hiking with different Karin (38:26.329) Right. Bobbie (38:47.714) Different balance challenges so that when they are off balance when they're hiking, that they can find their balance without injuring themselves. So lots of different, you know, every dog is different. I could have five poodles in here that all do the same sport, and the exercises I might choose for them might be different. they also have longer muscles. So they have longer, leaner muscles often. Karin (39:02.755) Mm-hmm. Bobbie (39:15.438) than some other dogs. So I'm not I don't expect them to be bulky, right? I'm just trying to continue to make them flexible and strong and that their muscles are toned. So that so that they're actually using those muscles. and, you know, and helping them move better for for again, like if they're a show dog, if they're an agility dog. Karin (39:29.601) Exactly. Bobbie (39:41.554) oftentimes I have dogs that are show dogs and agility dogs, right? So so the the physical demands of both of those things are very, very different. So keeping the dog that's getting potentially getting tight muscles and overworked muscles in the agility ring to move better and and smoother in the breed ring is a little bit of a challenge. And it's just about about, you know, kind of balancing those exercises. So that so that we're supporting both sides. Karin (40:16.429) Well, it has really been fascinating talking to you today. Bobbie (40:16.834) Well, it has really been fascinating talking to you today. Karin (40:21.655) I know you're a little pressed for time. Bobbie (40:22.092) I know you're a little pressed for time. I am, sorry. Yes. I totally understand. it's been really interesting. I've learned a lot and I know that my audience will have done the same. Great. Thanks so much. You're welcome. Karin (40:25.547) Yes. I totally understand. it's been really interesting. I've learned a lot and I know that my audience will have done the same. Thanks so much.