Unraveling Canine Addison’s Disease: Dr. Steven Friedenberg Discusses His Research

speaker-0 (00:04.194) Hi, I'm Karen. And I'm Elise. Welcome back to Poodle People, where we talk about all things poodles. speaker-0 (00:15.896) Last week I talked about Poodle Day, Kentucky, and I just wanted to add some more details. It looks like it will be November 9th. If you missed it, it will be in Lexington, Kentucky at Jacobson Park, which is just outside of downtown. easy to get to and a nice little park. I'm still planning on the schedule, but you should probably mark your calendar now. That it will be the second Saturday in November on a yearly basis. This is part of my AKC Fit Dog Club, and it's our first public event. So I h hope that poodles from the area and from all around Kentucky can make it. speaker-0 (01:13.88) Guys, I'm really excited about today's guest. I'm thrilled to talk to Dr. Steven Friedenberg, who is an associate professor in the Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences at the University of Minnesota. At U of Min, he's a member of the Canine Genetics Lab and the renowned Center for Immunology. He also holds faculty appointments in comparative biomedical sciences, veterinary sciences, and bioinformatics, and computational biology graduate programs. Dr. Friedenberg earned a B.S. in chemistry from Yale. He graduated from vet school at Cornell, and he completed a rotating internship in small animal medicine surgery and a residency in emergency and critical care medicine at the Ohio State. After finishing his residency program, he earned a PhD in genetics at North Carolina State University. If you're counting, he's been at four amazing land grant universities: U of Minnesota, Cornell, Ohio State, and NC State. And it makes me really happy to see how land grant universities are serving veterinary researchers with excellent opportunities. His research focuses on studying inherited autoimmune disorders and dogs, and I'm really, really w pleased to welcome him today to the podcast. speaker-0 (02:42.862) So let's get started with our guest. speaker-0 (02:54.786) Doctor Friedenberg. speaker-1 (02:56.62) Hey, how are you how are you there, Steve? speaker-0 (02:59.31) It's so nice to meet you, and I'm so glad that you are on the podcast. I'm so excited to talk to you about the research that you do. speaker-1 (03:07.906) Yeah, it's always exciting to to chat about standard poodles and Addison's disease is certainly one of my favorite subjects. So thank you so much for inviting me. speaker-0 (03:17.262) Absolutely. My pleasure. So let's before we get into Addison's, would you mind telling our audience a little bit about yourself, your dog experience and interests, and then we'll move into your professional background. speaker-1 (03:34.614) Yeah, so so so basically yeah, so my name's Steve Friedenberg. I'm a veterinarian. I I grew up in New York. I was raised by a mother who kind of always loved dogs and she was kind of very into the rescue community. being a veterinarian is something that I had kind of really always thought I wanted to do with with my life, although at one point my life took a little bit of a detour and I I kind of got caught up in the business world for a bit and then after a few years went back to vet school and I've kind of never looked back. I went to vet school at Cornell. like I said I'm a New York State resident and so that was kind of the natural fit for me. and when I was in vet school I sort of started working for a researcher named Rory Toddhunter who was a geneticist and that's kind of really what what turned me onto genetics as well. speaker-0 (04:28.375) very cool. do you currently have docs? speaker-1 (04:32.47) Yes, I do. I have one dog and he is a rescue dog. He's actually sitting under my desk here with me at work. His name is Hugo. he's actually from Brazil. he was he was rescued from a a favela, which is like kind of a a shanty town on the the mountains of Rio de Janeiro. So we we brought him here from Brazil. speaker-0 (04:52.952) Cool. So how did that work? Were you working with a rescue in Brazil or were you actually traveling there? speaker-1 (05:00.622) Yeah, it's kinda it's a very complicated story, but I actually met my husband in Brazil when he was there working as a journalist. And Hugo, who's the name of our dog, was his dog before he became our dog. And when he moved back to the United States from Brazil, we flew Hugo on a plane back with us. So speaker-0 (05:20.27) okay, cool. Yeah. I love that. So no poodles in your no poodles. speaker-1 (05:26.86) No, no poodles no poodles in my life. I've actually never owned a s a standard poodle. sorry sorry to say, but I've been to, you know, kind of many, many poodle shows and know lots of poodles and folks in in in the breeding community, but I've I've never had a poodle myself. speaker-0 (05:42.312) So it looks like from your faculty page that you have a research position. Are you research and teaching? speaker-1 (05:50.114) Yeah, so I I actually do research, teaching and clinics. the way a lot of faculty appointments work is that, you know, people will be divided in those three areas and I'm on clinics about ten weeks a year. I I was just actually on last week. and I'm board certified in emergency medicine and critical care medicine for dogs and cats. so I'm usually working in either the emergency room or the ICU. And last week I was working in the ICU in the emergency room, excuse me. speaker-0 (06:16.652) Wow, you must see some really interesting things come in. speaker-1 (06:19.404) Yeah, you know, it's kind of a it's definitely a a mix of things. I mean, it it's sort of interesting and that's really one of the reasons I got interested in Addison's disease is because it's a common emergency that we see in veteran medicine, especially when animals kind of get into this Addisonian crisis and are really sick and and we need to kind of treat them urgently. and so that was r really one of my motivations for wanting to think and study the genetics of Addison's disease. speaker-0 (06:45.918) that's fascinating. So have you seen a fair amount of dogs come in with the Addisonian crisis? speaker-1 (06:52.77) Definitely. you know, over the course of my career I've seen many cases of dogs with an Addisonian crisis. I I would say like this day is that these days I think vets are a little bit more in tune with it. And I think I feel like I we see fewer and fewer dogs that truly present in a crisis situation. a lot of times we see them when they're either just diagnosed or when they're sort of presenting with some of those vague clinical signs that dogs often get when they have Addison's disease, like you know, vomiting, diarrhea, those are kind of common reasons for dogs to present to the emergency room and and we can sometimes work them up and get get owners an answer right then and there. speaker-0 (07:28.022) Right. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about Addison's since you set that up so well. It it it's an autoimmune disease that we don't fully understand. Am I correct? Yeah. speaker-1 (07:41.142) Think that's, you know, I I I can't say a hundred percent that that's totally correct. So it is an endocrine disease, meaning it's a disorder of the adrenal glands, where the adrenal glands, for whatever reason, don't produce enough hormones to sustain life. And their hormones, well, we can sort of talk about them, are are called cortisol and aldosterone, are are the main hormones we're talking about. the the the reason why sort of you know, just hesitate to necessarily call it an autoimmune disease is because in humans there's clear evidence that Addison's disease is an autoimmune disease. And and a lot of times in dogs we sort of take what's known about a disease in humans and sort of assume that it definitely applies to dogs. But really the the evidence that it is truly an autoimmune disease affecting the adrenal glands in dogs is not as strong as it is in humans. And some of the preliminary data that we actually have from standard poodle specifically suggest that it actually really might not be an autoimmune disease, but we I don't know that I can say that definitively. But regardless, it it does affect the adrenal glands and their ability to produce those hormones. So kind of the downstream effects that we see in the body are are the same regardless of the underlying pathogenesis. speaker-0 (09:02.542) Okay. so if y obviously a lot of our audience is going to be poodle owners, what should they be thinking about as they are listening to this and thinking about their own dogs and how they might present with Addisons and what that would actually mean as an owner? speaker-1 (09:26.582) Yeah, so so this is a great question. So, you know, so Addison's disease, as I was sort of mentioning, is something that affec is a disease where the adrenal gland gets affected and can't produce these hormones. And those two hormones, one of them is called cortisol, one of them is called aldosterone. And all dogs with Addison's disease, we we we divide Addison's disease up in a a number of different sort of categories, but all dogs with Addison disease will experience a lack of cortisol. And Cortisol is like the sh is the stress hormone in the body that you need to respond to kind of any circumstance that puts a a dog or human, if it's for humans, under stress. And so for dogs, this could mean things like you know, boarding, like new experiences, you know, whatever they're they're they're kind of experiencing in their life that's different from their normal routine. And when animals don't have that cortisol, they can exhibit a lot of different effects in the body. And so Animals can, for example, develop like waxing and waning vomiting, waxing and waning diarrhea, meaning it sort of comes and goes. Sometimes they can be like picky eaters, right? Where dogs will sort of just eat one day, but then kind of not eat so well the next day. someday they'll be a little bit more tired than usual. So a lot of these signs can be really kind of vague and they can mimic a lot of other signs of problems that that we see in dogs. You know, so for example, dogs often present, you know, with vomiting and diarrhea for many different reasons. You know, they they ate some some something they shouldn't have. They got into the garbage. They, you know, what they and so any of these things can cause signs that are similar to Addison's disease. But I think for a poodle owner specifically, when owners see those signs and we sort of ruled out the common reasons, you know, like so for example, a foreign body or just they got into the trash or something like that that would cause vomiting and diarrhea, it's important to sort of ask your veterinarian or ask yourself, you know, is this something that could be Addison's disease? And it's really a pretty simple test that we can use to rule that out. The other hormone that I mentioned, just kind of getting back to what owners could look for, is called w which is which is missing in most cases, not all cases of Addison's disease. speaker-1 (11:46.976) Is called aldosterone. And that tends to cause a lot more severe clinical signs. Like dogs without aldosterons will urinate a lot, they'll vomit more severely, they can have very low blood pressure, they can be collapsed, they can sort of just really, you know, recumbent, not want to get up. And those are signs that you need to bring your dog to the emergency room right away, the kind of the quintessential Adosonian crisis that you and I. speaker-0 (12:13.046) Right. So how much impact is it going to have on a dog's life to be diagnosed with Addison's? speaker-1 (12:22.626) Yeah, so it's a great question. So most dogs with Addison disease, dogs that have kind of the typical form, will require will require will require lifelong treatment with two medications. But all dogs, even if it's kind of the atypical form, will require lifelong treatment with one medication. And those medications, there's one medication that replaces the cortisol that's lost. And typically in veterinary medicine, we use prednisone, which is a steroid at very, very low doses. and the other medication that we use is a medication that replaces the aldosterone that's lost, which is the other hormone. and that medication is typically administered as an injection once every 25 to 28 days, which is sort of sticks around in the body long enough that it it it it needs but it does need to be replenished again about every month. speaker-0 (13:13.354) Okay. So full disclosure, I actually have a young dog with Addison's. So I'm listening to you and agreeing with everything you say, of course. Yeah. and it is I think people be probably because it used to be maybe less recognized, I think now it's less frightening because you really can treat it and manage it pretty well. But everything you're saying has jived with my personal experience with my former show dog and now pet. speaker-1 (13:50.346) Yeah. That's great. Yeah, and there's you there's there's a bunch of you know, the other thing which I will I will sort of say is that, you know, the other ways in which it certainly impacts people's lives is that it's it's not free, obviously, to treat a dog with Addison's disease. In particular, the monthly injection that your dog gets can be a little bit pricey. the steroids are not very expensive, but it is something you have to just kind of keep up with every day. We do always recommend that when animals with Addison's disease are put in stressful situations that we kind of double the dose. Normally one of the things the adrenal gland does is it regulates the amount of cortisol in the bloodstream based upon how much stress is going on in our lives. And if those glands aren't functioning well, it obviously can't do that. So we need to kind of do that for our dogs by giving them some extra medication if we think they're in a stressful situation. And so the like I said, the the predant zone is pretty cheap. The the injections can be a little bit more expensive. A lot of dog owners will learn to give those injections themselves at home to save a little bit of money. Not everyone is comfortable giving their dog an injection, but you know, you can definitely learn by working with your veterinarian or your veterinarian staff to kind of do that. and the other thing in terms of sort of life, you know, like effects on the dog is that there have been some studies that basically showed that, you know, dogs with Addison's disease that are treated appropriately. really have a a very normal lifespan. So there's no you nothing not nothing to sort of no no sort of long term impacts if the dog gets it treated what well and and all the crises are managed. But, you know, it it sort of just takes dedication and and commitment and and some time. So speaker-0 (15:31.67) Yeah, yeah, that has completely been my experience. He is a different dog now that he has undergone treatment and is doing well. You'd never know, other than the fact that I can no longer show him. So and obviously that was very stressful for him and that's how I found out. but he did not have a crisis, so I was very lucky in that sense. but I think the the diseases Fascinating. And I think that poodle people don't talk about it enough. I think, especially among breeders that I have known, it's something that you don't speak about openly. So as a small breeder, I do actually tell everyone that my dog has this disease. I think it's an important thing to be transparent about because you know, not everyone, I mean it's not pleasant to have to pay that every month. for me it's easy because I can give a shot. being a horse person, it's not a big deal. but it is definitely something that you need to think about. And one thing everyone asks me is why I don't test for it. Yep. So would you like to explain why I don't test for it? speaker-1 (16:52.746) Like it's it's a pr it's a pretty it's a pretty easy question. It's pretty easy answer. And and the answer to the question is, well, there's there's no way to test for it now. that's one of the things that you know, kind of kind of working hard on on resolving with my you know collaborators who who are studying the genetic basis of this disease. You know, you can you can screen any dog using an endocrine test, meaning, you know, you sort of can test How well their adrenal glands are working, but that only gives you information like in the moment, right, for how they're doing. It doesn't give you any information for how they might be in the future. And so typically we don't really recommend just randomly testing your dog for whether or not they have Addison's disease, especially if they don't have any clinical signs, because that testing is highly likely to be normal. What what we'd love to work toward is more of a genetic test where we can sort of tell from the the day a puppy is born whether or not they're they're going to develop Addison's disease. Now, one of the things that we've learned over the course of years of studying this disease is that Addison's is what we would call a complex genetic trait. and and what that means, you know, a a lot of times we I I speak with breeders and and many just people, lay people in the public. You know, we we tend to think of diseases as being recessive, meaning you have you need two copies of a mutation to cause a disease, or dominant, meaning you need one copy of a mutation to cause a disease. And these traits are also what we call monogenic, meaning there's one gene that's responsible for the development of the disease. Early on, when geneticists were trying to kind of understand what's going on with Addison's disease. There was some notion in the literature that Addison's in standard poodles in particular was likely to be an autosomal recessive disease. And we've shown that definitively to not be the case. And rather the fact that Addison's is complex or polygenic, meaning, and what that means is there's going to be some number of genes, right? I don't I don't have a specific number for you yet, but it could be two, three, four, five, six genes that contribute to the speaker-1 (19:09.07) predisposition to developing Addison's disease, but don't necessarily mean 100% that that you're gonna get it. And so the reason why I don't think genetics is ever going to be 100% predictive is because there's likely some other environmental effects that also impact whether or not a dog is likely to develop Addison disease. And we've done a little bit of work in this area as well to try to understand some of these non-genetic effects as well. speaker-0 (19:39.596) So I've read that paper that you just referenced on the different effects. And none of them, so for me, I'm always thinking, you know, what did I do wrong? And my dog has really had no exposures to any of the things that could could have been contributing to his development of this disease. But I thought that that was very interesting that some, you know, just the way we live with our dogs. And the exposures that we have, I think that's something that we don't always think about as dog owners. speaker-1 (20:15.35) 100%. And you know, I think de definitely, like, you know, I think we were h expecting or maybe hoping in that in that paper to to sort of find some major environmental influence that triggered the onset of the disease. But what what what we did find in that paper is, you know, while there was didn't seem to be anything associated with, you know, like pesticides or incense or flea and tick products or type of diet that that dogs were eating, the the one thing which really did have a significant effect. size as to whether or not a dog or a or poodle really would develop Addison's disease was whether or not they were spayed or neutered. So, you know, and and I just want to sort of before I sort of go on any further, I I just want to sort of emphasize this doesn't mean don't spay or neuter your dog. I think that's really a decision that people need to make based upon whether they're looking to breed a dog, behaviors that that spaying or neutering are gonna change in the dog, you know, whether this is sort of a a pet again or a breeding dog. But Definitely spang or neutering had a reasonably high effect, particularly neutering male dogs, as to whether or not a dog is likely to develop Addison's disease. It was really the biggest quote environmental risk that we were able to identify in in that study. And we don't have a clear reason why. There's a number of different things we could hypothesize as to why that has an effect. I think as I've digested these findings a bit more over the past couple of years, you know, my my guess would be that the the male gonads, so that the testicles secrete hormones, testosterone in in and of itself, that it is actually important for the maintenance of adrenal glands. And there's been numbers of studies in humans and mice and dogs to kind of show this to be an important thing. and and my guess is sort of the lack of testosterone does have some impact in dogs that have a genetic predisposition that might sort of push them a bit over the edge. But that's just a guess at this point. speaker-0 (22:21.342) So do you have a a sense for how large the population of poodle dogs that actually have Addison's is? speaker-1 (22:31.766) You know, that's it's a great question. I I wish I could give you a a definitive answer. You know, one of the things that we lack t terribly in in veterinary medicine is really good epidemiologic studies. you know, because it can be so hard to sample populations and because also there's so much inbreeding in dogs. You know, there was a paper out there that sort of suggested up to eight percent of standard poodles have Addison's disease. I I think that's way, way too high. you know, my my guess would be it's under five percent, you know, maybe under you know, maybe the one to two percent of dogs, but that's still pretty high for a a dog that's as popular as Sandra Poodles. And, you know, probably one of the reasons why we see it so frequently in the breed is because it is a very popular breed that has a significant overrepresentation of Addison's disease. There was one study out there that came out of Sweden. I I think it was done in in 2015. that that looked at about 500,000 dogs. And it's kind of interesting. So most dogs in Sweden are actually insured. And the reason the studies, the study was able to get so many dogs enrolled is because they were able to look at insurance health records. and that and and better in Sweden. And what you you well, you can't calculate a percent of dogs, percent of standard poodles that have Addison's disease from this kind of data. What they were able to do is they were able to estimate what's called the relative risk. And so that means is compared to an average dog, how much higher a risk are standard poodles or any other breed, for example, to develop Addison's disease? And what that study found is at least within a Swedish population, standard poodles, I think, were 17 or 19 times as more as more likely to develop Addison's disease. than an average dog breed. And that was the second highest. The highest was Portuguese water dogs, which were 29 fold more likely to develop Addison's disease than an average breed. And you know these numbers may differ a little bit based upon, you know, local populations, but I think it just goes to show that you know, that th those are the breeds really that that we see so commonly and they're kind of the poster child breeds of, or unfortunately, in in veterinary medicine when we we learn about the disease in clinics. speaker-0 (24:58.072) That's actually fascinating because Swedish lines have had a lot of influence on poodles in the US. and mine actually my dogs come from a Swedish line. Interesting. yeah, it is kind of interesting. I didn't know that. so that that really is interesting. food for thought. So how should breeders be approaching Addison's when they're thinking about their next litters. speaker-1 (25:32.064) Yeah, so it you know, it's it's a great it's a great question. And obviously in the absence of a genetic test, it it's really hard to give a a great answer. I mean, but the couple of things that I can sort of say generally speaking, which, you know, in and I've had many conversations with many standard poodle breeders over the years, from you know, going to PCA kind of almost every April, is number one, obviously, if if a dog has Addison's disease, you you don't want to breed that dog, or if a dog has Addison's disease. in in its line or or has sired or or you know given birth to any dogs with Addison's disease, you you kind of want to stop breeding that dog. I think there's kind of a number of different ways though, like in which poodle breeders like to sort of calculate genetic diversity and and there's a number of different tests that that can be done for that. And so I I I think the the idea would be to sort of breed dogs that are as genetically unrelated as possible would basically be the the main the the main thing to do so that because don't we and and because that just maximizes diversity from a population perspective in general. And and I think that's just kind of the way to go, if that makes sense. speaker-0 (26:46.018) Yeah. so do you think that like Bloat did Bloat and Sebaceous Adenitis, those seem to have come from the genetic bottleneck in the nineteen fifties. Do you think that Addison's also kind of came from that or do you think it could be different? speaker-1 (27:06.572) Well, the only thing that would suggest that it might be a like and it a little bit earlier would be that we do it might be an older mutation, is that we we have, you know, as I mentioned, standard poodles and Portuguese water dogs are kind of the poster child breeds. And they're also the most they're also the breeds that are most highly related to each other. So to the extent that the mutations or the variants that cause Addison's disease are shared between Portuguese water dogs and standard poodles, it may actually be something that predated that bottleneck. but it it's certainly possible that the you know 1950s bottleneck exacerbated it or helped helped it along. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. speaker-0 (27:47.06) Okay. So what other research topics are you working on? It looks like you have other interests, but probably not poodle interests, right? speaker-1 (27:57.888) Yeah, I mean and so yeah, so I I will sort of say like from a let me just sort of from a poodle perspective, you know, we are kind of actively chasing down Addison's disease and trying to kind of understand it. The the the we're and we should we're hopefully we're in the process of repairing like you know, the Poodle Club of America Foundation has been very gracious in helping to fund much of my Addison's disease research over the years. I I can't say enough. positive things about how wonderful they've been to work with as as really as well as the in entire poodle breeding community. You know, I I know you had mentioned that breeders don't oftentimes like to come forward. I and I think that's while that may be true, I've certainly found a number of breeders over the years who have come forward and told me about Addison's DC in their lines and and helped give me DNA samples, which has been kind of really helpful for all of the research that we've done. And so hopefully we're gonna we're we're planning on publishing a paper, I would say, sometime within the next three to six months that will kind of be, I think, the biggest and broadest survey of the genetics of Addison's disease and standard poodles thus far, and talk about a number of markers that we think we're we're finding and the genes that are being implicated there. The other thing that's potentially coming out of this research, you know, one other thing that we've found. from our research is that larger standard poodles, you know, even because you we sort of think about poodles as having, you know, toys, minis, and standards. Well, even within standards, there's a range of sizes that dogs will be. And I think, you know, we we've shown through some of the work that we've done that larger standard poodles actually tend to have more Addison's than smaller standard poodles. So we think there may be some effect of some of the genes that influence the size of dogs. that are also contributing to Addison's disease. So that'll all be kind of wrapped up in this initial paper that we're putting together. And you know, I'd be happy to kind of come back and talk a little bit more about that research, I think once it's out there in public. but your your question was around other diseases and things that I study. So I am also actively studying the genetics of this disease in Portuguese water dogs. And you know, the reason I think to study it in two breeds is really because they are so closely related. speaker-1 (30:20.992) And being able to sort of look for kind of shared genetic mutations is something that I think can actually only help the cause. So there's a number of different, you know, complementary things we can do by having data from Portuguese water dogs and sandra poodles. And you know, that research has been funded by the analogous, the Portuguese Water Dog Foundation, who's also been great and it's been a great breed organization to work with. in addition to studying Addison's disease, so you know. I'm I'm interested in complex genetic traits more broadly, and in particular I'm I'm interested in those diseases that I tend to see and help manage clinically. and another disease which which does occur in standard poodles, and they're sort of not the most common breed where this disease occurs is a disease called immune-mediated hemolytic anemia. Oftentimes it's it's represent abbreviated as IMHA, sometimes it's called autoimmune hemolytic anemia, so a number of different names or abbreviations for for that disease. That is an autoimmune disease. Again, unlike Addison's, we know this is an autoimmune disease and it attacks the red blood cells of dogs. And that's kind of another interest that I have in studying it from both a genetic perspective and an immunology perspective. speaker-0 (31:44.716) Really fascinating. So just to get back to your new findings, that size may have something to do with it. Yep. I'd like to just show my Alfred to you as a poster child for Addison's because his mother is quite small, his father is large, and he is larger than his father. So I have a 27-inch, 73-pound standard poodle, which is quite large. Mm-hmm. so he definitely fits all of the criteria that you have outlined. Yeah. speaker-1 (32:21.154) Yeah, and I think that's, you know, certainly something like we hear. you know, the the other thing which we I I would actually be curious about, you know, this these are again, these are sort of just like anecdotes, but some of the some of the genes we're mapping that tend to be associated with Addison's disease are have also been associated with other behavioral traits in like humans and where where it's a little bit easier to study behavioral traits, but A lot of these genes are associated with conditions like obsessive compulsive disorder and anxiety and sort of just in general being like a little bit more of a high strung dog. And so, you know, we that we're sort of there, there could be in dogs, if it's maybe not autoimmune, there could be some more of a brain adrenal axis that sort of does pre pre predispose them to developing this disease. So I'm not sure if you perceive your dog, at least prior to the diagnosis, as being. you know, kind of an an anxious fellow, but you know, sometimes it's hard to gauge. Yeah. speaker-0 (33:20.354) That would be the one thing where I would say he's not anxious. He's absolutely he's been a doll to to show he's happy to go anywhere, meet people, you know, I take him anywhere and he's usually the star and loves being the star. So he does kind of fly in the face of that one. But you know speaker-1 (33:38.904) How did you diagnose? How did you get him diagnosed? speaker-0 (33:41.912) So he had you I didn't really recognize that he had muscle wasting. Okay although, you know, once someone, another breeder said that, I was like, yes, of course he is. I knew he was thin, but I didn't really put those two things together. And I as a horse person, I don't know why sometimes my horse skills don't always directly translate to dogs, but sometimes I fail myself. because in a horse I would have been saying, What's going on here? so he had gotten thinner and had lost some muscle. And then I took him to a show that we had won at the prior year, and he he wanted nothing to do with it. Like he I mean, he ran with me, but he was like, I don't really want to do this. I don't really want to be here. And I thought maybe he just wasn't enjoying showing. So I entered him in coursing ability as his afternoon fun time and he actually quit the course. wow. So I was like, okay, so we're going to the vet tomorrow. you know my dog not wanting to run is clearly an issue. so you know it was somewhat subtle, but the signs were there. he ate well all the time. That was not an issue. But you know, so fortunately we weren't entirely sure he did have a low heart rate. but I think that my vet probably would have tested for other things, but I actually pushed for Addison's and I was correct. speaker-1 (35:32.534) Yeah, that's great. I mean, certainly, you know, you had mentioned having like a low heart rate in the face of being in shock is actually one of the kind of classic signs that we see in dogs with Addison's disease because when one of the one of the electrolytes that gets affected with w the one of the hormones that's missing is called is potassium. And when potassium gets really high, the heart rate can slow down and sometimes to a a lethal level. So definitely glad your dog didn't get to that stage. But yeah, then I'm glad you pushed Radissons and I think your experience just kind of shows how variable and vague the clinical signs are. You know, didn't want to kind of, you know, go on a go on a course when it you know is sort of a lot of things can cause that, I guess. So speaker-0 (36:16.8) So his potassium levels have always been normal. speaker-1 (36:20.266) Okay, great. Yeah. So he's an atypical is he an atypical dog then or Okay, got it. speaker-0 (36:24.472) Yes. Yeah. and in fairness to my vet, I'd like to point out that I wasn't seeing my regular vet. I doubt he's listening, but just in case not the person that I see all the time. so yeah, so it's very interesting and it is, you know, I I think if I hadn't been a strong advocate for him, he would have been not diagnosed until perhaps he had a crisis. speaker-1 (36:32.396) So Justin. speaker-1 (36:54.274) So yep, and and particularly the atypical ones, right? They're the hardest ones to diagnose. The typical ones that present an adrenal crisis can be a bit easier. So speaker-0 (37:02.966) Yeah. so it's something for people to keep in mind if their dog is showing any kind of weirdness and you're at the vet and the vet is like, yeah, everything looks fine, ask for it because it's not that expensive. It's really easy. It's one hour. I went and had lunch, we came back, we were positive. You know, I mean it was like such a simple thing for us to be doing. that I I think it's something to have in the back pocket, just So that you're self educated and can advocate for your dog. speaker-1 (37:34.306) 100%, yes. And and just so your listeners know, like the test I typically recommend that they ask for is something called a baseline cortisol. those would be the test that you know any any veteran would know. And what that does is that's more of a rule out test for Addison's disease. So if a baseline cortisol and this is really applies to listeners in the United States because we use different units to measure these things in in in Canada and and elsewhere, but The United States, if the baseline cortisol is less than two micrograms per deciliter, then that's consistent with Addison's disease and requires a follow-up test. But if it's above two, it rules out Addison's disease. And so, you know, that and that's it, that initial test, the baseline cortisol can be run pretty quickly. Like some bets will do it in-house, some bets will. Have a one or two day turnaround time. And again, if it's above two, it rules out Adison C's. If not, your dog would need to come back for kind of a a more rigorous test, which sounds like the one you had called an ACTH stimulation test. And that's a test where we measure cortisol, we give a synthetic hormone that's meant to stimulate the adrenal glands, and then we measure the cortisol levels again. the a normal healthy dog with healthy adrenal glands, the cortisol levels will rise in response to that hormone. But in in a dog with Addison's disease, because the adrenal cortex isn't working properly, it will stay like flat line. And so that's kind of the the classic way to diagnose it. speaker-0 (39:12.172) Yep. And that is exactly the path that we took. So I know that you have an ongoing, I believe it's ongoing research project where you are collecting samples. Would you like to talk a little bit about that so that we can encourage some submissions? Yeah. speaker-1 (39:33.102) Absolutely. So we are we're kind of like always recruiting samples from standard poodles, and and we sort of bucket them into two categories. So first is dogs with Addison's disease of of any age. and the second would be basically dogs who are at least 10 years of age and do not have Addison's disease. Now the the one sort of caveat I I would say to this and is when you're trying to understand. The genetic basis of disease, especially within a dog breed, where dogs within a breed are so, so highly related to each other. Sometimes the genetic relatedness of dogs can actually confound or confuse our ability to kind of understand genes that are associated with the disease. And so because we've collected DNA from so many standard poodles over the years. These days when people ask me, can I enroll you know my dog X in your study, I I say potentially absolutely, but the first thing that we like to do is we like to look at a copy of the dog's pedigree. And the reason is is because we like the dogs that we recruit on an ongoing basis to be as minimally related to our existing population of standard poodles as possible. Because having dogs that are related. again can confuse our study and really doesn't add a ton more information. Right. So that's probably if if you know if your readers, if your listeners excuse me, reach out and and sort of want to potentially enroll their dog, the best thing to do is to email us and and we have an easy to remember email. It's poodles P O O D L E S at N Umbrella Mary Nancy or like university of Minnesota dot edu. So poodles at n dot edu. And We'll and then you know they can let us know was the dog affected or unaffected, and then we'll ask for a pedigree and then sort of make the decision whether or not the dog, we should we'd like to enroll the dog. And and if we do kind of move forward, usually what we'll do is if your dog is affected or has Addison, we'll just ask to see a copy of the medical records, really just so we can confirm it to our s confirm it, and then we'd work with your local veterinarian to collect a blood sample. speaker-1 (41:56.754) and again, we have a study that will pay for the collection and the shipping of samples, and that's you know graciously funded by the the Poodle Club Foundations. speaker-0 (42:05.196) We love that. We love funding for these important things. That can be very difficult to get funding from the major external funders that universities would typically work with. So yay, PCA. speaker-1 (42:17.869) Yes, definitely. speaker-0 (42:19.578) so I just had one question about the unaffected dogs. Do you ask for older dogs because they have different genetic traits as they get older, or is it something that is that typically develops later in life? speaker-1 (42:36.494) Yeah, that's a great question. So, yeah, so the genes are going to be the same. You know, that the DNA is really effectively the same from when a an animal's born to when an animal passes away. So it's not so much because the genes change, but we just really, really want to make sure that that dog is not going to develop Addison's disease. So most standard poodles develop Addison's disease sometime between two and four years of age. That's certainly not every standard poodle. sometimes it's diagnosed later in life, particularly for some of those. atypical cases like your own dog. But but the reason so the reason we ask for dogs are over ten is because we can be pretty certain that if we haven't developed Addison's disease by the age of 10, that they're not likely to develop Addison's disease in the future. So speaker-0 (43:19.489) Okay. So as we close, if people have any questions, how should they ask those questions? Is there an office number in your research lab where you could send people or would you like them to go to the website? Would you like them to contact you in another way? speaker-1 (43:43.778) I think that email address is usually the best way to reach me. you know, is that poodles at umn.edu to ask me questions about that Addison's disease. You know, one thing which I I I I'm always happy to sort of talk to people about, but I like about about the study, about problems, about questions they have with standard poodles. So that's you know, a good, a really the best way to to kind of reach out to me. You know, as far as the phone's concerned, like you know, these days I think. Phone numbers often like go to voicemail and then people come back. So just just emailing is is better. the other thing just to kind of be on the lookout for is I do you know occasionally do other like webinars and things like that. So there's a great website, for example, called care. I think it stands for canine resources and addisons and education. canine Addison's Resources and Education, excuse me, run by a a woman named Lori Basher. And I've done webinars through them and then I do tend to speak at PCA every year about my research and give a little prime percent addison disease. So there's kind of plenty of other opportunities to to to listen and and learn. Okay, well too. Yeah. speaker-0 (44:52.352) Yeah, so it's canineaddisons.org. speaker-1 (44:55.436) Yep, that's the website for care. Yeah. speaker-0 (44:57.708) Yeah, so if you if anyone's listening and they have questions that the UMN website doesn't answer, that's another great resource. speaker-1 (45:07.434) Absolutely. Yeah. speaker-0 (45:09.432) Does PCA record your discussion each year or do you actually have to come in person? speaker-1 (45:16.172) You know, I think you ac I think in the past occasionally they've recorded it, but mostly it's it's kind of an in an in person thing. but it is a it's a it's a great i idea to sort of have that become more publicly available and posted and that kind of thing. So we'll can definitely look into that for next April. speaker-0 (45:34.454) Okay, so I really appreciate you coming and talking. I know as a researcher you're really busy, so I don't want to take up more time, but I really want to thank you for sharing this really vital information and for doing the research that you do. speaker-1 (45:49.696) Yeah, of course. And I, you know, I just want to say thank you so much for inviting me and for giving me an opportunity to talk a little bit about this research. I'm I'm really passionate about it and and hope that you know eventually we can we we can kind of continue to make progress and and give people a little bit of some answers as to sort of what causes this, what's going on, how do we potentially test for it. and and I just kind of also want to say thank you again to all the people who've kind of helped fund this, you know, the Poodle Club of America Foundation and really all the breeders and dog owners who've also contributed to this research. You know, this isn't something that can be done in a vacuum. And and so it's really nice to have the support of lots of folks out there. So speaker-0 (46:27.458) Yeah, I work at a at a university here in Kentucky, I really I work with researchers who are doing similar genetic projects with you pretty frequently. So it's really nice to be talking to someone and to understand the things that you're doing pretty well. so I'm really grateful. I know that what you do is so important, just like every other researcher who's doing these kind of h important health. topics. So I really appreciate it and I'm so glad that you had some time for us. speaker-1 (47:02.402) Yeah, of course. Thank you so much and thanks again for having me. It looked great chatting with you. Garrett, yep. speaker-0 (47:06.412) My pleasure. Thank you. speaker-0 (47:15.158) Mm-hmm. speaker-0 (47:19.394) Thanks for listening and remember a poodle will change your life. As this episode comes to a close, I'd like to remind you that you can get in touch with me on Instagram at Strong Contestant No O. You can email us at Poodle People Podcast at gmail.com, or you can visit my website at Scotch Corner Standard Poodles.com. I am also taking reservations for my next litter with Emma. So if you are interested in a poodle puppy, please get in touch. Please remember to like us on your favorite platform or even better, leave a review. We really appreciate it and it helps us get new listeners. And if you have any questions you want me or Elise to answer, send us an email at poodlepeoplepodcast at gmail.com. speaker-0 (48:20.002) Thanks for listening to this episode of Poodle People. See ya next week.